May 22 Podcast #688: Vinyl Records: A Love/Hate Relationship
We have spent a lot of time discussing high vs. low quality audio on the show lately. A full feature on the subject is still in the works and should be available sometime in the summer. But along the way we have had a few of you tell us that you still listen to Vinyl on turntables. At the same time we have seen a few companies reintroduce turntables to the market so figured why not take a listen and more specifically introduce some younger ears to how we used to listen to music back in the day.
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We have spent a lot of time discussing high vs low quality audio on the show lately. A full feature on the subject is still in the works and should be available sometime in the summer. But along the way we have had a few of you tell us that you still listen to Vinyl on turntables. At the same time we have seen a few companies reintroduce turntables to the market so figured why not take a listen and more specifically introduce some younger ears to how we used to listen to music back in the day. The purpose of this is not to say vinyl is better or worse than digital, but to discuss how the digital age has totally changed how we listen to our music. There are some out there that say vinyl is better because there is no compression and it captures exactly what the artist wanted you to hear. Others say that it just sounds warmer. Regardless of what you think of the quality listening to music on vinyl is a dedicated experience that can’t be taken on the road or while you workout or pretty much anything else. The experience is about the music. For our listening experience we chose the Pioneer PL-30-K Audiophile Turntable (Buy Now $299). It took about ten minutes to setup the turntable. A nice feature of the PL-30-K is that you have an option to connect it to your receiver through a normal RCA input because of the built-in phono equalizer. There is also an adjustment of the amount of weight the needle puts down on your albums which is there to help in tracking and skipping. That’s something you don’t think about with digital files. I (Ara) pulled out all my old albums, some in atrocious condition and some in nearly pristine condition. As a control I bought the latest Taylor Swift album, 1989. I needed something my kids would want to hear plus they are very familiar with the digital version so their young ears should be able to hear any difference in sound. My kids were very amused at the spectacle of removing this large black disc and carefully handling it only by the edges and then placing it on the turntable. Then with the press of a single button the arm lifted and moved its way over to the first track which resulted in Taylor’s dulcet tones emanating from my Kef speakers. I was quickly taken back to when I was a kid. I grabbed the album cover from my kids and immediately started looking at the pictures on front and back and on the inside. I even showed my kids that they would put the words to the songs on the album sleeve. My youngest was enjoying the song and her non-critical ears really didn’t hear any difference. That is until I pointed out some static that was barely noticeable on some quiet passages. This surprised me, even on a brand new album pressed in Germany I was hearing static. Perhaps the arm adjustment could have been made to eliminate/minimize the static, but I was not accustomed to hearing pops and clicks no matter how hard I listened for them in my music. Then the song ended and my daughter wanted to hear a song that was on another disc. I hit the stop button, take the disc off the turntable and put it back into the sleeve, then I pull out the new disc place the correct side on the turntable, and finally raise the arm move over to the track she wanted to hear and miss the starting point. I lift the arm reposition it and lower the needle at the beginning of the song. My daughter laughs and says if I knew it was going to be so complicated I would have just listened to the next song. Sigh… I explained that, for the most part, we would listen to albums in a linear fashion and that many albums tracks were selected in a particular order to convey some sort of meaning. Of course there were plenty of pop albums that had one or two good tracks and the rest were just filler. My oldest daughter kind of liked the experience and wanted to have a party with her friends to listen to my old albums. I think it was more of a retro thing than anything else. But she could see how you could make an evening out of listening to music. When it was all said and done, I think there is no way my daughters will give up their portable music that can go anywhere they go and allow them to create playlists on the fly to compliment their mood of the moment. Although my kids were done with the experiment I still had stacks of old LPs to listen to. So I dug through disco, rock, pop, and even comedy albums from the early 70’s to the late 80’s. And what I found was that I took atrocious care of my old LPs. On the stuff I listened to over and over in highschool you could hear pops and clicks that ruined the music. But still I had a smile on my face. The only thing I could think of was that not only was I listening to the music of my youth, which I can do at a moment's notice on my iPhone, but I was ACTUALLY listening to the music of my youth. I fondly remembered sitting in my room playing my Japanese import of Cheap Trick at Budokan. Then it hit me… I was listening to the Japanese import of Cheap trick at Budokan! That goes back to the late 70’s and sure I had a pristine version on my iPhone and yes so do my kids (they love Cheap Trick). It sounded like crap but I was smiling. I even called my kids back into the room to take a listen. After listening for a few seconds my youngest said, “Poor Daddy, how did you guys ever make it through highschool without iPods?”. I explained that the albums sounded better when they were new. But I think her point was that it was so cumbersome to listen to music. After all, how did we setup party mixes? I searched for my Dire Straits albums since they were among the last that I bought before I got my first CD player. I figured those would be in the best shape. Indeed they were! It was 1985 and thanks to MTV I had discovered that Dire Straits had more music than just Sultan’s of Swing. I went down to Tower Records bought a bunch of their old Albums. I remember that day very clearly because the guy at the counter made a comment that he was selling a lot of Dire Straits due to the popularity of the Brother’s in Arms album. Even buying music was an experience! I didn’t discover the song Skateaway for many years and as such was never really played on my old turntable so I knew it would be in perfect condition. It was and it sounded great! I sat there and remembered the old times and how much I missed actively listening to music. Before my listening session was over I had listened to at least one track on almost all my albums. Some sounded great and some sounded downright horrible. Not due in any part to the turntable of course. This is what I learned: At their best, vinyl sounds as good as CD. Is it warmer or more analog? I don’t know, but it does sound slightly different . On pristine tracks I was still able to tell which was digital and which was vinyl. But who cares, they both sounded excellent. Listening to music on records is a dedicated endeavor. Sure you can turn on the turntable and play the A side of your favorite album while you pay your bills or clean the kitchen, but that’s not typically what’s done. Instead you find some time, pull out your music, and listen. No multitasking, just you and the music. Read the liner notes, look at the artwork, and drift off to wherever the music takes you. Yes you can do that with digital, but seriously, how many of you listen to an entire album on your portable music player? I am sure some of you do but you are the exception. With all that said, I don’t think digital music has anything to worry about. As much as I loved going down memory lane, I hated how careful you had to be with records. One slip or drop of the LP and your fantastic sounding record was ruined. Hearing pops on some of my old stuff brought back memories of being upset because a friend scratched my favorite album. Your digital files will sound as good 100 years from now as they do today. Listening to Surrender with static was fine once but not over and over. Then there’s portability, I can take my music anywhere I go. Not just a few albums but all my albums. Going back to my daughter’s comment about party mixes, it becomes trivial to setup a playlist that can run all night without any intervention. Its easy to buy, discover, and stream music with digital files. The list goes on and on. Even if you think the digital music sounds soulless, you can’t argue that it still sounds pretty good. Here is my compromise. At $300 the Pioneer PL-30-K makes it possible for you to have the best of both worlds. Take your digital music on your runs or in your car. But when you want to really get lost in the experience, pull out your records and let the music take you away!Vinyl Records: A Love/Hate Relationship
Pioneer PL-30-K
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Experience
Reader Comments (5)
My opion is this I have both, digital and analog and I enjoy both. CD's are great and high res digital files can be better, but there are cases that ripped cd's, ripped in the highest quality actually sound better than some high res files that you pay for. I think I know where you were going with this by taking a average turntable that most people might buy and using it as an example, but it is a very unfair example when comparing the formats. To really get what vinyl lovers love most about the format, you can't take a cheap turntable with a built in preamp and then say you don't get it.
You did however got it right when you said being able to read the lyrics on the cover is part of the nostalgia. It would be like comparing a cheap receiver to separate power amp preamp in home theater, and yes I have made that comparison with both a middle priced receiver, a highend receiver and now my separates and the separates when every time, which is what is in my home theater today.
Getting back to vinyl I have had seven turntables throughout my life, a Technics 1200 MK4, a Sansui SR-929, a Dual CS5000, a Project debut III, a Project Expression III, a Musichall MMF 9.1, and my current VPI HW-19 MK 4 with speed control. I have heard a Denon DP300F that is similar to the pioneer that you used and let me tell you there is no comparison to my VPI or even the Technics or Sansui, which I still have, they are better in every way.
To be fair you should have also went to a highend store and heard a quality table on a better system and then you would have gotten why people like vinyl so much. When I started I didn't get it either and through it all it wasn't until I got the Music Hall and then moved to the VPI and even before getting the VPI I heard a SME 20 with the same cartridge that I currently have did I truely understand what vinyl could do.
You can't compare a cheap built in preamp or even a receiver preamp with a phono imput to a separate good solidstate phono preamp Music Surroundings Phonomenia or even a Jolida JD-9 to. This doesn't even take into account the Solid state vs Tube amplification. That is not to say CD, which is predicted to be gone, isn't great, even on a crappy system it can sound good, but on a great one CD can be spectacular and Hi Res Digital on a good system through a MAC or PC or even a Streamer/Bryston Bdp-1 or 2 and be awesome. I have a Hi Res set-up on the PC through JRiver.
I get your premise, but the comparison was unfair to vinyl lovers, but fair to the audience in which you were just adding a turntable to an existing system for. Analog is more expensive in the long run to get a spectacular system vs, just adding a CD player or an MP3, but the quality from a great cd player ie: Audio Research CD 2, 5 or 8 will beat ie a lot of CD players out there. Dispite what some think and I'm a realist Digital is the future and there is something to be said for portablility (some Cheap Downloads), but Hifidelity is another matter and as you have said in previous podcast some HiFi stores have disappeared. Hif Fidelity is a balance of all worlds because after all it isn't about the equipment, it's about the music. Good review as always and great podcast, I"ve followed you for years and keep up the good work.
Saw a bumper sticker on a car last week with "Vinyl is killing MP3"
I agree there is a certain nostalgia value with vinyl. It's just different and should not compete with digital media. I have both solid state and tube amateur radio stations. I use both and enjoy each for their unique characteristics. Its fun to operate my 1965 vintage radio just as it fun to listen to vinyl. So if you can afford it monetarily and space wise I say go for it and enjoy a little nostalgia.
BTW, if you just want to fake it you can add the pop and hiss to your mp3 files. See How to Geek's Ask HTG: Can I Add the Hiss and Pop of a Vinyl Record to My MP3 Files?
http://www.howtogeek.com/215084/ask-htg-can-i-add-the-hiss-and-pop-of-a-vinyl-record-to-my-mp3-files/
Enjoy the show. Keep up the good work.
Great stuff guys! Keep up the good work! Btw - I think it would be helpful if there was a live video stream posted to youtube weekly. Thanks again! Keep it coming!
Agreed unfortunately Ara you weren't able to get the full potential of vinyl because of the quality of your turntable and your playback system. You are trying to compare two formats on a system that is not able to resolve it. Like I said in one of my other posts its like trying to see 1080p material on a 480p tv, not going to happen.
Vinyl does clearly have a richer more natural sound "when" its a good recording and was mastered properly. Its not because its warmer (although many use that explanation of the sound difference) it is not a sample of the music like digital, it is a full bandwidth analog wave form that has not been compressed or sampled. You able to hear all the harmonic overtones of the instruments and more ambient decay which is what makes it sound more real. Digital simply cuts some of that out, and squashes and compressed it at the same time.
A good turntable starts at $500 then a good cartridge and phonopreamplfier. Every part of the turntable is important and effects the performance. From the base it sits on, the base of the table, bearing, motor, tonearm, phonocartridge, to the phonostage that must amplify and re-equalize back to flat so you can hear it properly. Not to mention the critical aspect of proper setup and calibration.
Now with that said records are not always better, but digital will never be as good as the best in analog records. It depends on how it was recorded, and how well it was mastered onto that format. I have heard many records that can sound bad to outright dreadful all because it was either a bad recording or was mastered poorly. Radiohead for example (big fan) the records sound terrible, all because it was most likely digitally recorded and who ever mastered them did a terrible job.
So you do have to have both formats, but those that really want to the best possible reproduction of music and have pretty good systems (no receivers, integrated amplifiers or better) a high quality turntable is where its at.
Kevin 40 years high end audio video specialist, analog turntable expert.