Friday
Feb192010
Feb 19 Podcast #413: HT Guys HDTV Recommendations
Category: Podcast Tags: Buying guide, LCD, Plasma
Podcast Tags: Buying guide, LCD, Plasma 
We receive emails from listeners all the time asking us which HDTV we recommend. That list will vary depending on the use case and budget of the emailer. On today's show we'd like to tell you what our picks are for a typical use scenario for low to medium budgets.
Listen to the show
Today's Show:
News:
- Retail Conspires Against Redbox by Limiting DVD Purchases
- SlingPlayer Mobile App With 3G Support Now Available From App Store
- Sony pulls plug on OLED TV in Japan
- 80M Blu-ray Players Shipped In 2013
Other:
Its our five year anniversary and you get the prizes!
To enter simply follow us on Twitter. Follow Ara at hdtvpodcast and follow Braden at BradenRussell We'll select winners at random and announce them on our April 2nd show. Here is what you can win:
- Audioengine 5 (A5) Premium Powered Bookshelf Speakers.
- INSTEON Home Theater Lighting Control Kit
- The RedEye Remote Control System
- Aperion Home Audio Link™ System
- Calibrated Measurement Microphone from Cross-Spectrum
Open to residents of continental US only
HT Guys HDTV Recommendations
We receive emails from listeners all the time asking us which HDTV we recommend. That list will vary depending on the use case and budget of the emailer. On today's show we'd like to tell you what our picks are for a typical use scenario for low to medium budgets.
LCD
Samsung LN46C650 46-Inch 1080p 120 Hz LCD HDTV - We selected this TV for a variety of reasons. At 46 inches it is the perfect size for most family rooms. Yes you can go larger but this TV doesn't dominate the room and provides you easy options for placement. As far as features are concerned, this TV is packed full of them. Its 1080p 120Hz that provides a beautiful picture whether you are watching a movie of sporting event. Samsung uses a technology they call "Wide Color Enhancer 3" to provide better blues and greens. Note - picture quality assessment is being made on the performance of this model's predecessor the LN46B650. This unit will be available for pre-sale and will be released March 8th.
The TV is also Internet capable (wireless support built in) and has easy access to weather, news, sports and stock information. In addition to news the C650 supports Yahoo widgets so you can keep up with Twitter, Flickr, and YouTube. Finally, as if all this isn't enough the TV supports Amazon Video on Demand.
Simple media center - The TV is DLNA certified so you can view movies and listen to music from your PC essentially turning the TV in a standalone media center. While you won't be able to serve the content to other TVs it will save you the hassle of having to find your DVDs to watch your favorite movies.
The Samsung LN46C650 will sell for $1300.
Plasma
Panasonic VIERA G10 Series TC-P50G10 50-Inch 1080p Plasma HDTV - This plasma was selected for some of the same aesthetic reasons as the Samsung. Fifty inches will fit in almost any family room without taking away from the room decor. From a technical point of view the TV has one of the best pictures we have seen. It produces a brilliant picture from any viewing angle and has lightning quick response times so watching everything from movies to Ice Hockey is free of motion artifacts.
The G10 is also Internet capable but instead of Yahoo Widgets it supports Panasonic's own VIERA Cast technology. Like Yahoo widgets, VIERA Cast displays news, weather, and stock information as well as supporting YouTube, Picasa Web Albums, and Amazon on demand. Unlike the Samsung, the Panasonic requires a wired connection to your network for the Internet features.
You can also insert an SD card with H.264 AVCHD content turning the plasma into a basic media center.
The Panasonic TC-P50G10 goes for $1270.
Budget
VIZIO VA370M 37-Inch Full HD 1080p LCD HDTV - In our budget line we chose a smaller TV. Its a compromise in size for price. At 37 inches it can still function as your primary screen in most family rooms. The TV is 1080p which really doesn't matter since you'll have to sit about three feet away from it to see the difference. Regardless you can tell your friends that you have a 1080p set. Picture quality is good but it won't compare with the previously mentioned TVs. However, if this is your first HDTV or you plan on using it for your bedroom you won't be dissatisfied.
Like the other two TVs the Vizio supports viewing multimedia content on an external drive. However, there is no support for online content like YouTube or Yahoo widgets.
The Vizio VA370M goes for $478
Reader Comments (27)
Thanks for the recommendations! I am going to be buying a 32" TV this weekend most likely and I have been considering the Sony and Samsung 1080p sets, because some say that you CAN see a difference even at 8 to 10 feet. Is that simply not the case? Also, I want 120hz refresh, and at Best Buy, only the 1080p sets have that, rather than the 60hz. Am I really wasting my money getting the 1080p?
Vance,
At 32 inches you would have to sit about three feet away from the set to see the difference. If you can buy a good 720p TV then save your money. Resolution is not the most important factor in deciding on what TV to buy.
Ara
Thanks Ara! What about the refresh rate? Is getting 120hz worth it? I am having trouble finding 720p sets with 120hz, they all seem to be at 60hz. Would it be worth getting that extra refresh rate that comes with the 1080p sets? We watch a lot of sports.
120Hz works great on test patterns but in real life you won't see a difference. I don't have the article in front of me but I recall reading a study that experts could not tell the difference while watching TV programming. But while watching test patterns designed to foiled 60Hz it was obvious.
Ara
Just wanted to comment about the rental movie market. I am not a lawyer, but it is my understanding that the studios have no way of stopping you from renting anything that you own. Therefore any of us could go out and buy discs at retail and start renting them out. This is not very practical though as your average disc cost is going to be around $20 if you are buying new releases, so you're going to have to rent each disc about 20 times and then turn around and sell the used copy just to make a profit. You do not need to pay the studio any money to rent the disc.
What the studios do, is agree to sell discs to the rental chains wholesale. In return for cheaper copies of the discs, the rental chains agree to some terms. These can be that the discs are different rental copies, destruction of the discs instead of resell, not having access to them for 28 days, or a royalty paid back to the studio for each copy rented. This is what Netflix, Blockbuster, and the big chains do.
It is also perfectly legal for a retail market to limit the amount of items you can buy. You see that on ads all the time.
Regarding to the buzzing in the Samsung plasma, my 50" does the same thing. i relate my noise to my reciever though, i don't think it's coming from the TV but i'll turn the speakers on and test it tonight when i get home.
HI! Just posted on Digital Trends but I wanted to directly ask you guys:
"I'd like to know if they have seen a Panasonic after the voltage change....not a hi fildelity guy, but I think my Pana looks yucky now...before it's blacks were soo black it almost was 3d like. From what I am told this will happen to all Panas. Not slower, just more gradual but in the same time."
Gosh, I really loved my Pana...but I really wouldn't recommend it to anyone because it will change so much over a short time. I wish you could see mine. Got mine in August. A v10 50"
For the guy looking for the TV/Monitor, I've owned the T260HD for a year. It is fantastic. Great as a monitor and it has a remote for TV viewing, Clear QAM and HDMI. Buy it without hesitation, at the HTGuys store of course.
Ara, here is what someone posted over at AVS, and it gave me just the nudge I needed to get the 32XBR9:
#1. 32 inch 1080p matters For Gaming
#2. 1080p matters in terms of re-sale value 2 years from now hardly anyone will want a 720p set.
#3. 1920x1080 resolution will matter if its used as a PC Monitor or Home Theater PC.
#4. I have found first hand that a 1080p set even at 32 inch will just have a better higher tier upgraded Processing Chip or chips.
#5. Warranty Return Exchange, If for What ever reason you need to do a Warranty Exchange, in a year or so, Or if you got the 3 Year Square Trade Warranty, in 3 Years you will get Upgraded to a very nice Replacement 1080p unit. Because you already had a 1080p unit. If you try that with a 720p unit, you won;t get as nice a newer model.
#6. Industry wide, all major manufacturers have eliminated 720p 32 inch sets. Everything will be Standardized at 1080p even at 32 inches.
Not all of these apply to me, but since the price was only a bit more than I would pay for a decent 720p TV (I paid $599), the idea of a potential better build quality overall, etc, made the small extra investment worthwhile.
For the Panasonic plasma, the statement about adding a hard drive is incorrect. The TV can show AVCHD video files on an SD card, but there is no USB port.
Based on Braden's review, I'm definitely getting the Samsung LN40B650 if I can find one at a good price. I've seen this model and the picture quality is outstanding, even playing back HDTV from Comcast cable and even upconverted DVD's.
I need a new TV for my bedroom. I currently have a 37" Olevia LT37HVS. The black level is starting to become a problem for me (mainly when watching movies) as I want something with deeper blacks which this set just can't provide. Viewing distance is from 8 feet (from my desk) and 10 feet (from my bed). I have two windows in the room; one parallel with the screen face on the opposing wall, and one perpendicular to the screen on the left wall. I would prefer a gloss free screen or something with an AR coating to reduce reflections. Actual room light levels though can be controlled for the most part.
I was pretty much set on getting the 42" Panasonic G10 series (42" version of the 50" Panasonic recommended in the latest podcast) but am having doubts after reading about the occurrences of dramatic black level shifts on CNET and AVS forum.
HDTV requirements;
42" (plasma but might consider LCD as well if it had good blacks)
1080p (will be hooked up to computer also)
deep blacks and color accuracy
below $900
Thanks for catching that Tim. When working late at night things like that slip by once in a while. The text has been corrected.
Ara
Here is CNETs official comment on the plasma black level issues to date
Editors' note, February 9, 2010: According to user reports, which first surfaced on enthusiast Web site AVS Forum, this Panasonic plasma may lose black level performance noticeably over time. Panasonic has issued statement, admitting to changes over time but saying performance is still "excellent." While CNET reviewers have not been able to verify or refute either claim, we nonetheless do not recommend buying this TV. Click here for more information.
Lee,
Panasonic is the only company that makes 1080p plasmas under 50", and they actually make 3 different lines (U1, S1, and G10). While the G10 is technically the best of those three, the black level issue has been most prevalent on the G10 line, and I wouldn't recommend getting one anymore. However, the S1 has had hardly any black level issues, if at all, and it is still highly recommended if you look around AVS forums. It may be the next model down, but it still has really, really good black levels and puts out a great picture, and it will save you some money compared to the G10.
http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-VIERA-TC-P42S1-42-Inch-Plasma/dp/B001UE6M8O/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1266689027&sr=8-1
So if you want the TV right away, that's by far your best bet. However, Panasonic's 2010 models are only a month or two away, and they're supposed to have mostly fixed the black level issue. If you can wait, an S2 or G25 will give you better picture quality than the S1, though they may be a bit more expensive at first.
Hey guys, just listening to your podcast and I'm replying in regards to the Samsung plasma buzz problem. I too have had a buzzing problem with my pn58b550 since I first got it about 4 months ago. The buzz sounds like the normal buzzing sound of a transformer up close. I thought about returning it but I can't hear the buzz when there is content being played. The only time I notice the buzz is when everything is quiet in the living room, there's no audio coming out of my surround sound, and I'm paying attention to it. I had a similar problem with my Samsung dlp fan noise. I've read in a few forums that the position of the t.v in certain rooms will amplify this buzzing sound. If the person wants to keep the t.v. because of the picture quality then I would recommend repositioning the t.v set if possible. This might reduces the noise one receives in a certain viewing position. If not then they will have to keep contacting Samsung about it, as they are reluctant to do much unless you keep pressuring them.
Question about streamed movies. I am waiting for OPPO to do HD Netflix streaming or something with HD (BluRay) streaming. That is brings me to my question. Why do we even refer to BluRay when we are talking about streaming quality? Is it the baseline? I understand it is a standard but do content providers actually make the stream off of a BluRay disc. Why wouldn't the stream be taken from a source that is before the creation of the BluRay? I guess I am thinking of the future. Will BluRay be anything but just a way to satisfy the rental or infrequent purchase market. If I had HD quality streaming with the ability to cache or DVR content, I don't think I would ever need discs. Thanks for the quality job you do with your research and podcasts. I am about a year and a half behind with listening to the podcasts but I do learn something with each one I listen to so I don't want to miss anything. I will catch up someday. --M
Scott,
I actually considered the S1 series but am a little hesitant since it's part of the same generation as the G10. Although most of the reports have been for the G10, there have been S1 series (as well as V10 series) owners that have come forward with the same claims of black level degradations. Although I can understand that electronic devices can have flaws, the way that Panasonic seems to be handling the situation leaves little to be desired. I'm not too eager to rush into the 2010 Panasonic models till I"m confident that it has been used by consumers enough to verify that it doesn't suffer from the same flaw. Such a confirmation probably wouldn't be available till 2011.
I've been a plasma fan for many years now. I've supported plasma because of its better black levels, better off-angle viewing, better motion resolution and lack of motion blur. But having now gone through three different plasma displays from three different manufacturers, I have to say that I think I am done with plasma!
Reasons:
1) All plasmas buzz. Some are worse than others. Some are more noticeable than others. But they ALL buzz.
Sadly, the worst buzz has come from the best plasma picture quality-wise: my 60" Pioneer Kuro. From a picture quality stand-point, the Kuro is stellar in almost every way, but its operational buzz is far too annoying. The problem with the Kuro is that the buzz actually emanates from the screen itself! Most plasmas have a second layer of glass over the actual plasma panel. This reduces the buzz and basically makes it so that the buzz only comes out the back and top. But the Pioneer Kuro has no second layer of glass, so the buzz comes right out of the front of the screen!
Panasonic's 2010 plasmas supposedly use a similar design to the Kuro and have no second layer of glass this time. While this might improve certain picture quality facets, I fear that it will also mean more audible buzz.
2) Uneven phosphor aging / image retention / burn in
Whilst really obvious burn-in is pretty much a thing of the past, image retention and uneven phosphor aging still plague plasmas. I play videogames and watch content with "black bars". ALL of my plasmas, including my Kuro, have eventually started to show image retention or uneven phosphor aging. My Samsung 50" plasma was the worst. Eventually, it started to show "ghost images" during normal viewing. For example, if a bright scene suddenly faded to black, there was an obvious "after-image" that lingered for a second or so. This got worse and worse as the TV aged.
My Kuro has been good except for uneven phosphor aging. With a videogame HUD or the black bars of 2.35:1 aspect movies, putting up an all-white screen reveals that some of the pixels are now dimmer or brighter than others. This is not burn-in as these image faults are not visible with regular content or a black screen. And it is not image retention, as once again, it is not visible with a black screen. But it is uneven phosphor aging as some of the pixels have dimmed more quickly than others.
To be fair, LCD displays can suffer from uneven pixel aging as well. The only display technology that does not ever suffer from uneven pixel aging is DLP. But it is worst with phosphor-based displays.
3) Rising black levels
ALL plasmas have rising black levels over time. This most recent Panasonic issue might have brought it to the forefront, but all plasmas gradually get brighter (in terms of black level) as they age. They also get dimmer in terms of white level. So as plasmas get older, they get lower and lower in contrast.
The bottom line is that plasmas look great at first, but they do not age well. I've been forced to replace my displays faster and faster because I am simply not tolerant of poor image quality any more. My Kuro is barely 6 months old and I am already dissatisfied with it. The buzzing is annoying and its uneven pixel aging is very disappointing.
The sad thing is that there is no, truly great alternative. I was a fan of Samsung's LCD displays until Samsung decided to only make glossy screen LCDs! All of Samsung's displays now have glossy, reflective screens that make them utterly useless IMO. I don't want to see my own reflection when I watch TV! I also don't want to require a pitch black room with a flat panel display!
All of the edge-lit LED LCD displays out there have absolutely terrible off-axis viewing.
So it's come down to local dimming LED LCD displays or regular CCFL LCD displays. Of those, Sony is the only manufacturer offering decent black level performance along with matte, non-reflective screens! Sadly, their last local dimming LED LCD - the XBR8 series - had terrible off-axis viewing. Sony's new HX900 series holds promise, but the largest HX900 model is only 52" ! Given that I want a minimum size of 60", I'm still without a solid choice!
Vizio's XVT Pro Series appears to be my only hope for this year. The 72" size with local dimming LED backlight is the only display that seems like it might offer what I am looking for. I'm sad to say it, but plasma just has too many problems.
I'm befuddled by all the sudden plasma worries. We bought our 50" Panasonic plasma in December of 2005 (a 1366x768 resolution model) and it's been the best TV I've ever owned or spent any amount of time viewing!
Regarding brightness, after several months, I remember feeling like it needed the contrast turned up some, so I did so, and indeed that looked better. That didn't worry me at all considering all that I had already read about the technology, how the phosphors age, what to be careful of, etc. The phosphors in a plasma (red, green, and blue for each pixel) function similarly to the phosphors on an old CRT direct view, in that they fade over time. I'm sure Panasonic engineers have a nice little graph of phosphor brightness over time, and based on that, they've engineered in a voltage boost to compensate at certain time intervals. My 2005 model might not have that automatic boost, and that could be why I felt it needed the contrast up.
Plasma, and Panasonic in particular, is still by far the best bang for the buck for typical movie and TV watching. It is still slightly possible to get burn-in if you use a plasma just for gaming and leave menus or other static images up for hours and hours with the contrast cranked up on showroom "vivid" mode. I bought a Sony LCD for my office since it would effectively be a 2nd PC monitor that I didn't want to have to worry about. But because burn-in is so unlikely, because of the viewing angle and better contrast and color, and because of the price, I still recommend plasmas to virtually anyone who asks. Recently, Sears did a closeout sale on Panasonic 720p (1366x768) 50" plasmas, and if you put it on your Sears card, it was $630 before tax. Six hundred and thirty! We paid over $3200 back in '05. Crazy...
Believe me, Lee, right up until now, I've been a fan of plasma for exactly the same reasons that you just wrote. It's been able to deliver better picture quality than LCD for lower prices - especially at larger screen sizes.
Those things are still true for the most part, but I'm simply at the point where plasma's few weaknesses are really starting to irk me and LED backlit LCDs are getting to a performance level and price at large sizes where I can't ignore plasma's problems any longer.
In the past, having the audible buzz, having the gradual dimming (and rising of black levels) and having the uneven pixel aging - those were all things I was willing to put up with simply because not a single LCD out there could come close to the black level performance, contrast, off-axis viewing or lack of motion blur offered by competing plasmas that also happened to be less expensive for larger sizes! In the past, LCD's picture quality weaknesses were too egregious, and by comparison, plasma's weaknesses were much more tolerable.
But I'm getting pickier and pickier in my old age :p My KRP-600M Kuro, for example, is, hands down, the best looking display I have ever owned! That said, the audible buzz really annoys me (and, to be fair, it is a more noticeable buzz than most plasmas due to the fact that the buzz emanates from the screen surface itself! ) and the uneven pixel aging is a real bummer as I am basically unable to play games on it for fear of imprinting "ghost" traces of where bright HUD images have been onscreen for several hours as I play. After paying upwards of $4000 Can. I would like to be able to use my display how I want and without being annoyed by an operational buzz! And just to be clear, my KRP-600M is professionally ISF calibrated. I even further reduce the contrast and colour saturation when gaming so as to reduce uneven pixel aging as much as possible. Despite all of those precautions, uneven pixel aging is still a problem and it has proven to be so on my previous two plasmas (a Samsung, then an LG) as well!
So all I'm saying is that local dimming LED backlit LCDs have closed the performance gap enough with plasma that I am no longer so forgiving of plasma's few weaknesses. Other than off-axis viewing and the slightest bit of "blooming", Sony's previous XBR8 models looked really, really good. Samsung's B8500 series looks excellent other than Samsung's stupid glossy screen surface and, again, off-axis viewing.
I'm picky as hell. I find myself going through equipment faster and faster because now, I'm looking for perfection. If my Kuro didn't buzz so loud and didn't give me the fear of uneven pixel aging, I would be happy. But those problems are inherent to plasma displays, so I'm starting to look elsewhere is all. In the past, I really didn't consider anything other than a plasma display. But now that local dimming LED backlit LCDs are improving so rapidly and plasma is basically standing still, I'm pretty much done with plasma.
Rob,
You might be where picky crosses into obsessive. If I stand over my plasma, and concentrate, I can hear a mild buzz. MILD. My Comcast Motorola DVR's hard drive is louder, however, and from a few feet away that's all I can hear, along with children playing outside and a mosquito in the corner. And although mine isn't professionally calibrated, I haven't noticed one dot of uneven pixel aging. I remember my CRTs from back in the day being way louder (buzzing, and that godawful high-pitched tone) than my plasma is now.
Certainly an LED backlit local-dimming Samsung, for instance, can look fantastic. And different strokes for different folks--I really like what the glossy screen does for the contrast. But because it's passing light through the LCD, it can never have the viewing angle of a plasma, which is essentially 179.999 degrees, although LCDs are better in this regard then they were a few years ago. And the cost difference is big, especially when comparing the local-dimming LED LCDs. You're right, eventually that will moderate.
Because it is still possible to cause burn-in, you really need an LCD for the several hours of gaming where a heads-up display might be in the same place the whole time. Like I said, that's why I got one for my office. But when I replace my 50" Panasonic plasma in the main movie-watchin' room, I'm pretty sure it'll be the larger 1080p 58" Panasonic plasma, like the HTGuys are praising.
Really love the show. Have listened for about 2 years, you guys are great and knowledgeable. I am sure that all of your listeners are grateful of your skill and time. But my opinion is that the begging for money has gotten a bit out of hand. Please cut it back a bit. Thanks !
Great show guys. I have been listening for over a year now.
I have been following the posts about Plasma displays and different issues and just wanted to give a different perspective.
Firstly, I cannot understand why anyone would continue to recommend Panasonic plasmas to anyone at this point. This is like recommending a Toyota with a known recall issue. Panasonic in my opinion has dropped the ball on this issue. When is the last time you have heard a manufacturer say that an issue is by design and you as a consumer will just have to live with it. Crazy. Is the CE industry so desperate for a good plasma maker that they are willing to over look the issue that Panasonic itself has admitted to. I can understand it if this just came from forums, but Panasonic has admitted to the issue and their only fix is for the consumer to by a 2010 model. Unbelievable.
Secondly, in reference to Rob and Lee's discussion. I just wanted to add that you should rely check out the LED LCDs with local dimming, especially from LG. I picked up an LG 47" LH90 for $1399. This set has local dimming, but it is currently being discontinued to make room for new models. The prices for the newer local dimming models are not good though. Some of the comments that Rob mentioned is the reason i stayed away from plasmas. I have kids who game a lot on my TV and those problems would drive my crazy. Both technologies have their faults, my main issue is that you always hear LCD faults twice as much as plasma. I took the time to really research both tech and decide which was best for me. The new local dimming sets are like night and day when it comes to black levels. When it goes to a completely black screen, there is no light at all coming from the display. When there is just text on a black background, you cannot tell where the screen ends in a black room. I am able to watch TV in a completely black living room without the annoying grey/blacks that my other standard CCFL LCD screens have. This was a huge change for me that overcame enough of the LCD faults to allow me to stick with the tech.
Buzzing plasmas in Belgium:
In this episode you mention a listener who has a Samsung 58" plasma that buzzes and asked if anyone else has the same problem. I just purchased the Samsung 58" 860 tv in January, and it exhibits the same buzz, although in my living room, I usually don't hear it (at least at levels that bug me) although I do admit that a few times I've gone closer to the tv just to hear it, and just knowing that it's there bugs me, even if it isn't disturbing 99% of the time. It sounds, though, as if this might just be a characteristic of plasmas in general.