Podcast #391: Denon Review, CEDIA 2009 Part 2 and Front vs. Rear Pro

We received a great listener review of the Denon AVR-3310CI Home Theater Receiver, so we'll share that with you. We also found a slightly different take on this year's CEDIA show with a few more products to talk about. Then we dive into the ageless debate, what to buy: a Front or Rear Projector for your home theater.

Download this Episode.

Listen to the show

Today's Show:

News:

• THX: Video Calibration Improves Energy Efficiency
• Warner Purposely Delaying Blu-ray, DVD Releases
• Netflix expands digital inventory by about 40%
• Hulu Partners Eye Subscription Model

Other:

• The Wood Whisperer: Build your own Home Entertainment Center
• Blu-ray prices falling to DVD prices
• Ask a Pro: Q. Should I Go with a Big RPTV or Projection System?
• CEDIA 2009 Wrap-Up at HomeTheaterBlog.com

We received a great listener review of the Denon AVR-3310CI Home Theater Receiver, so we'll share that with you. We also found a slightly different take on this year's CEDIA show with a few more products to talk about. Then we dive into the ageless debate, what to buy: a Front or Rear Projector for your home theater.

Listener J.R. Reviews the New Denon AVR-3310C ($1500 Buy Now)

I just bought a Denon AVR-3310CI and thought I would share my experiences with you and your listeners.

My impetus to buy was the release of the PS3 Slim and it's bitstream capabilities. I knew for a long time that I wanted an HDMI-capable receiver, and was willing to live without bitstream mode from my original PS3. After hearing that the slim has bitstreaming of lossless audio, I felt is was time to move the original PS3 to the basement and buy a Slim. I then convinced myself that it was time to take the plunge and get that HDMI receiver I always wanted.

I first bought an Onkyo NS-TX807. After setting it up, it sounded good and did everything I wanted it to do. Then the problems started. It began emitting distortion through my speakers and my TV, and then shut down the audio output completely. I think it overheated despite being in a pretty well-ventilated shelving unit. After letting it cool down for about an hour, I tried again. This time it worked, but it started pushing a "thump" to my subwoofer every the PS3 changed audio modes. I was obviously not going to live with this, so I decided to return the Onkyo and get a Denon.

I was going to buy a 2310, but realized that I probably would not buy another receiver for a while. I have plans to build a dedicated theater in the next five years, and I figured this new receiver was going to move into the theater when it's built. So...I bit the bullet and bought the 3310. It's more future-proof.

This model has all the features you'd expect in an a mid-priced AVR: multiple HDMI inputs, video upscaling, DTS-MA and Dolby True HD decoding, support for the new soundfields such as front high speakers, networking capability, HD radio, iPod dock support, and multi-zone output.

After going through the Audyssey set-up, I first tried one of my favorite CDs. I was blown away with how much better this Denon sounds. I have had a lot of different receivers from a lot of different manufacturers. This one, by far, has the most accurate, smooth, and balanced sound reproduction. It sounds even better than my high-end (albeit 7-year old) Onkyo which is mated to superior speakers (makes me want to move the better speakers upstairs!). The other nice thing about CD playback is that the receiver automatically senses the source material and sets the correct playback mode. When playing a CD, it chose stereo mode. When I switched to a DVD, it chose the correct codec for the disc being played.

After trying a CD, I popped in "The Fifth Element" to experience True HD. This blew me away. Not only was the sound quality better overall, the surround channels were much more alive. I was totally enveloped in sound, which was a very cool feeling. I can't wait for movie night this week, not to mention the Glee premiere tomorrow night on Fox.

I then switched over to the tuner and experimented with HD radio. For those who have no experience with HD radio, it's CD-quality sound with additional information such as the artist and song title. This was a welcome surprise. I didn't realize how many HD radio channels were available in my area. The Denon picked up about a half dozen while using the supplied antenna.

Finally, the wife acceptance factor is pretty high on this one. My wife will really enjoy the Dynamic Volume, because she can't stand the large swings in sound during movie playback. We usually have to watch movies with closed captioning turned on because inevitably the dialog is too quiet in relation to the overall soundtrack. Dynamic Volume should fix this problem. Also, the remote is pretty straightforward. Denon placed most of the common features on the front of the remote, with big, easy to find buttons. The more arcane commands are hidden behind a panel on the back of the remote.

In all, I'm really pleased. The sound reproduction is fantastic, the features are great, and it's pretty future-proof (at least until HDMI 1.4 comes out!). It cost a little more than I wanted to spend, but I think it will last me a long time.

CEDIA 2009, Part 2

Crestron ADMS:

• Removes the boundaries between movies, music, TV, and the Internet
• Delivers all the content you want from DVDs, Blu-ray Discs, CDs, MP3s, iTunes®, Windows Media®, Netflix®, Amazon.com®, YouTube® and virtually any other online source you desire
• Organizes everything in an intuitive on-screen or touchpanel user interface
• Allows easy searching by title, actor, artist, genre, etc.
• WorldSearch™ instantly finds the content you want ― whether its on a hard drive, optical disc, or the Internet ― and delivers it to your home theater in full HD and 7.1 surround sound
• Purchase or rent movies and videos right on-screen
• Integrated Web browser enables access to all your favorite Web sites
• Onboard Blu-ray Disc drive allows playing DVDs and importing CDs
• Up to 1000 disc external Blu-ray Disc® storage ― adds every disc to your media library complete with cover art and metadata
• 1TB internal hard drive storage
• RAID 1 (mirrored) data loss prevention technology
• Expandable using NAS or Windows Home Server appliances
• Outputs 1080p high-definition video and 7.1 surround sound, plus 2 discrete zones of stereo audio
• Home Control screen enables onscreen control of lighting, climate, and other home automation functions
• Affords native Crestron® control system integration via Ethernet
• Gigabit LAN port enables ultra high-speed downloads and glitch-free streaming
• Front panel USB, 1394, and MMC ports enable easy transfer of home movies, photos, and music files
• Advanced HDCP support ensures compatibility with protected content
• Ultra secure and reliable operating system delivers a superior alternative to HTPCs
• Ultra-quiet design allows placement in the immediate listening environment
• VNC remote access enables off-premises dealer support and upgrade
• 3-space 19" rack-mountable (rack ears included)

Pioneer’s Project ETAP (Entertainment Tap):

• Play Blu-ray movies
• Managed Copy (backup) Blu-ray movies
• Connect to video services like Netflix (though definitely not Hulu)
• Stream stuff like MovieTrailers.com with a polished, non-web interface
• Link you to buying related movies/products through an unobtrusive interface
• Support Windows Media Center (possibly through DLNA)
• Be controlled through Android phones, the Nokia N810 (demoed perfectly), and the iPod touch (limited demo through the web)
• Load 128 USB connected drives (which it encrypts in some cases)
• Rip music in FLAC and PCM
• Automatically include the album art and lyrics
• Stream LastFM, Rhapsody and support Rhapsody downloads
• Integrate third party home automation devices
• Update Twitter
• And do everything listed above through a SlingBox-like, web-mirrored interface

Download Episode #391

Comments

[Bill]

One of the best things I did for my TV was running a calibration with a THX certified DVD. The difference was incredible and doing that calibration is what made me realize that I was not getting everything out of my TV that I could and made me start looking into HD.
The video at this link was helpful for me:
http://revision3.com/systm/HDTVcalibration

THX calibration sceens are available on any THX certified DVD; this includes most Disney DVDs . I used Pirates of the Caribbean.

[brad]

you mentioned cable cards falling away but you may have missed the news about the cable card tuners for htpcs and media center. It appears that cable cards card tuner will be available for the normal person and the new cards appear to have up to 4 or 6 tuners with the use of one tuner card. Several companies look to be moving into the area.

http://www.engadgethd.com/bloggers/ben-drawbaugh/

This would be huge for me and especially the wife. Though one cable card rental ($5 for me) I can record 4 hd streams. This would allow me to pretty much lose sd television ( I watch many USA, FX and SciFi shows) and save $10 a month for the box I have rented to record the cable only high def shows and be able to record many more streams.

While a small market I think you could say it was big news for cable cards last week.

[denny]

i just got my slim ps3 have it hook up to my denon 4310ci receiver when i switch it from pcm to bitstream
on the bottom of the screen it tells me that you will loses portion of the bd play back and sound drops
can anyone tell what i am doing wrong please thanks. i have it up hook via hdmi.

[Tycho]

About the listener with button problems on his Harmony remote, I have a comment. Several years ago I bought a Harmony 659, and was pretty happy with it. The wife and friends, mostly kids of friends, were all able to work all the equipment. Then after about one-and-one-half years, buttons stopped working. I called Logitech and even after several calls and elevations, I was told they would do nothing since the one-year warranty had expired. Given I had paid the full $199 price at Best Buy, it appeared I had really "rented" it for $11/month; I wasn't too happy.

But I did find on the Internet others with the same problem, and a suggestion that you could open it up and clean the contact points under the keypad. I tried and this sort of fixed the problem, but I had to repeat the process every month or so. Maybe this will help your listener.

When the Harmony One came out, I went and bought one of those. Can you believe that, after my previous experience? But I had invested a bit of an effort in setting up the 659, and I hoped Logitech had fixed the keypad problem. So far, so good. I really like the Harmony One look, feel, and operation.

[JerryY]

On the PS3 question,,, On this podcast the Guys defined Dolby True HD as lossless. I listen to a lot of SACDs on my PS3... apparently SONY has dropped SACD from the latest players.

I run the SACDs through my SONY 5100ES and I get a reading of 176kHz on the 2 channel playback. As you might imagine the sound is pretty good. This is a bit of data from Wikpedia comparing CD wirh SACD:

Format 16 bit PCM 1 bit DSD
Sampling frequency 44.1 kHz 2822.4 kHz[9]
Dynamic range 96 dB 120 dB[9]
Frequency range 20 Hz – 20 kHz 20 Hz – 50 kHz[9]

Now people say SACD is so good you can hear the frequencies covered... a long story.

This is what Wikpedia says about Dolby True HD:

Dolby's current lossless coding technology. It offers bit-for-bit sound reproduction identical to the studio master. Over seven full-range 24-bit/96 kHz discrete channels are supported (plus a LFE channel, making it 7.1 surround) along with the HDMI interface. It has been selected as the mandatory format for HD DVD and as an optional format for Blu-ray Disc. Theoretically, Dolby True HD can support more channels, but this number has been limited to 8 for HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc.

Anyway food for though, still sad to see SACDs go... as I think some of the recording done for SACDs probably had much higher quality in that the typical movie track... by many of the music videos on HDTV use special technology too.

Would like to see the Guys comment on this. I sent Dolby a note but they never responded.

Cheers

[Rob H.]

denny,

you're not doing anything "wrong". The issue at hand is a little bit complicated, but I will try to explain :)

First things first: PCM stands for "Pulse Code Modulation" and it is one of the most basic forms of digital audio. Think of it as the "primary building block" - the "common denominator". All other forms of digital audio can be converted into PCM. And your receiver can only perform processing on PCM. So any time your receiver is performing bass management, room correction, time delays, expanding a 5.1 soundtrack to 7.1 speaker playback using Dolby Pro Logic IIx - any type of processing, just remember that all of that processing is happening to a PCM signal.

So another way to think of it is that - no matter what type of audio goes into the receiver, it has to get turned into PCM at some point. Whether your receiver gets a Dolby Digital signal, a DTS signal, a TrueHD signal, DTS-HD Master Audio signal, or even just a stereo analogue signal - your receiver is going to take that signal and "decode" it back into that most basic "building block" of digital audio: PCM! Once the signal is PCM, then - and only then - will the receiver go to work an apply things like bass management, room correction, etc.

Now, the thing that you really have to remember is that the receiver can only "go to work" on one audio stream at a time. In other words, if you send it a Dolby TrueHD bitstream...no problem. Your receiver will take that TrueHD bitstream, decode it into PCM and then apply all of your bass management, room correction, time delays, etc.

But - and this is the real key here - some Blu-ray features make use of more than one audio stream! For example, a picture-in-picture special feature might use a "secondary audio stream". So what is happening is that the original TrueHD movie soundtrack is still playing. But IN ADDITION to the movie's soundtrack, a second audio track (that belongs to whatever is being shown in the PIP window) is also playing. Those two audio streams are completely separate and independent. The movie's soundtrack might be TrueHD, but the PIP audio might be regular DD or 2-channel PCM or its own TrueHD track or whatever!

When you set your PS3 slim to output "bitstream" audio, it can only send ONE of those audio tracks. The receiver can only handle one audio stream, remember. So in a situation like the PIP special feature, you wouldn't hear the PIP audio! You would only hear the movie's soundtrack and you'd wonder why the PIP special feature is playing but you cannot hear it!

When you set the PS3 slim to output "PCM" audio, things are different. The PS3 slim will "decode" the movie soundtrack's TrueHD stream into - you guessed it - PCM. The PS3 will ALSO decode that PIP secondary audio into PCM as well. Then, the PS3 will mix the two audio streams together into one, combined PCM audio stream and send that one, combined audio stream to your receiver via HDMI.

Now you will get to hear BOTH the movie's soundtrack AND the PIP secondary audio - which is as it was intended. So far as the receiver is concerned, it is only getting one audio stream - which is all that it can handle! But the PS3 is doing some extra work behind the scenes by decoding two audio streams and combining them into a single PCM audio stream.

So your PS3 slim is simply warning you that if you select "bitstream" output, you will lose the ability to hear special features that use their own, independent, secondary audio stream. These could be commentaries, PIP specials or just things like Heads Up Displays and overlays.

This whole "two audio streams" and "mixing" and such is the reason why I recommend always buying a Blu-ray player that can fully decode TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio internally and then setting it to output PCM to your receiver. People who recommend "bitstream" output simply do not understand how things work in this case. They are still thinking in the "old" way when getting surround sound meant that you HAD to use a bitstream output. With DVD, the problem was that there was no connection that could send a 5.1 or 7.1 PCM audio stream. The digital coax and optical connections only had enough bandwidth to send - at most - 2 channels of PCM audio. So the options were either: send Dolby Digital 5.1 and DTS 5.1 soundtracks as "bitstreams" or decode them internally, but be limited to only 2 channels! With HDMI, things are different and we can send all 7.1 channels of PCM, so there is no limitation and no need to ever send a "bitstream".

But people got used to seeing "Dolby Digital" on the front display of their receiver and now, they don't feel comfortable unless they see "TrueHD" on their receiver's front display. Insecurity and ignorance have made a mess of things! Let your PS3 do the audio decoding. That is how it was meant to be when Blu-ray was being designed. The player does all the decoding. The player also does mixing. And all that comes out of the player is a pure, uncompressed, single stream of lovely 7.1 PCM audio :)

[Rob H.]

When deciding whether to go front projection or rear projection or flat panel, it's important to remember that your seating distance determines your recommended screen size. With a 16:9 aspect ratio and HD resolution, we're really supposed to have no less than a 24 degree field of view and no more than a 36 degree field of view, with a 30-32 degree field of view being "ideal".

If your field of view is less than 24 degrees, you really aren't reaping much reward from the increased resolution. In other words, your eyes just can't see the extra detail. At more than a 36 degree field of view, you start to run into the real risk of seeing individual pixels rather than a smooth, continuous looking image. With the "ideal" 30-32 degree field of view, you basically get to see as much detail as is present in the HD image, but without the risk of being so close that you'll see the individual pixels!

So start by measuring the distance from your eyes (when you are seated in your primary seat) to where the screen's surface will be. Keep in mind that the distance could be different. A front projection screen might be literally flat against the front wall, but a flat panel plasma will be out a few inches due to its own depth and the depth of its wall mount. A rear projection display's screen could be a few feet out in front of the wall.

But take that distance (in inches) and divide it by 2.05. That will give you the absolute minimum diagonal 16:9 screen size - equal to a 24 degree field of view. Now take that same distance (in inches) and divide it by 1.34. That will give you the largest diagonal screen size - equal to a 36 degree field of view. Divide the distance by 1.626 and 1.52 to get the "ideal" size range - equal to 30 degree field of view and 32 degree field of view, respectively.

So, for example, let's say that you measure a 10 foot seating distance from eyes to intended screen position.

10 feet = 120 inches.

120 / 2.05 = 58.5

120 / 1.34 = 89.55

120 / 1.626 = 73.8

120 / 1.52 = 78.9

So there you have it! With a distance of 10 feet from eyes to screen, you want a bare minimum of a 58" display, and you would not want to go any larger than 90" at most. But the "ideal" screen size would be about 74 - 80 inches.

It's really, really important to remember to measure carefully though and to keep in mind where the actual screen will really be. In this same example, if that 10 foot distance is where a front projection screen would be literally flat on the front wall, then a rear projection TV's screen should likely be only 7.5 feet from your eyes (2.5 feet out, into the room).

If you went for a 75" front projection screen, you would need only a 56" rear projection TV to give you the exact same field of view!

So knowing your distance from eyes to screen really can help you decide whether front projection, rear projection or a flat panel is the right choice for you! Of course, lighting conditions basically trump all of it! If you cannot make your room dark (preferably pitch black), then front projection really just cannot look its best. It can be really helpful to keep in mind though that a rear projection TV or a flat panel TV doesn't necessarily have to have the same screen size as a front projection screen. You can still achieve the same field of view - the screen surface just has to be closer! With rear projection TVs, that pretty much goes without saying as they have their own cabinet depth and need some room behind them to "breathe". With a flat panel, you can always use its table-top stand and put it on a TV stand to get the screen surface closer ;)

[Rob H.]

I've had issues with Harmony Remotes.

My own Harmony One has been great for the most part, but the "9" and "+" buttons got stiff and hard to press. It seems that some gunk (probably from greasy food fingers :p ) got into the grooves of those two buttons and made them stick.

I fixed the problem by putting the remote on the bathroom counter and taking a shower :p The steam de-gunked whatever was in the grooves. I worked the buttons a bit and wiped them down and they've been fine ever since :D

Things have not been so easy with some other Harmony models though. I had one 550 that was DOA. Another 550 developed a couple of buttons that just stopped working (very similar to the reported problem on the podcast). Luckily, I was able to exchange both!

Until the Harmony One, I haven't been impressed with the design and build quality of the Harmony remotes. On the less expensive models, the buttons feel squishy and mushy and just never feel like they're make a solid connection. I also just find the "peanut" shaped remotes (like the 880 and 890) to have ridiculous button design and layout. Such skinny and tiny buttons - the design just never made sense to me!

The Harmony One and 900 have it right, IMO. The buttons feel better and much more solid. They "click" rather than "mush" and their size and layout just makes so much more sense than the "peanut" remotes.

[Nick H]

I had the exact same issue as Stan with my Harmony 880. For me it was the Volume button that was not working. At first it would be hard to get to work and I would have to push hard on the button, but recently it stopped all together.

In searching the internet it seems pretty common, these keypads have little rubber pads that stick off the keypad that makes contact with the circuitry to register a button hit. It appears like these pads get worn down a bit and don't make solid contact.

I came across this link (http://www.fixya.com/support/t2509624-sound_adjustment_doesnt_work_get_louder) where someone suggested gluing aluminum foil to the back of the keypad to have it make more solid contact with the circuitry. I tried this and the button is working like new!

I would recommend searching the Internet on how to open the remote as it is a bit complicated if you have never done it before. There are two screws I believe (at least on the 880), both on the underside. One up top and then one behind the battery. Then once you remove those there are 3 or 4 tabs down each side you have to put pressure on to get them to release. I found a really small screw driver worked the best.

[Leif]

I'm loving my Harmony 1100 but I've had one issue with it... albeit a pretty big issue.

I'm experiencing "run away" volume on my Denon 4308ci with the 1100 remote. When I hold down the volume button to go from say, -40 to -25 it'll just keep going past -25 to -10, -5, 0, yes all the way to +20. I have deafened people before and the dog runs out of the room (quickly) yelping. I need to set my max volume on the Denon to something reasonable say 0db (I usually listen at -5db) so we don't hit that +20db mark.

I haven't found a fix through Logitech or the AVS boards, if someone knows of something, please chime in.

[Rob H.]

Leif - I am not certain this will fix your problem, but it sounds as though you need a longer Inter-Key delay for your Denon. If you go into the "Device" tab of the Harmony software - select the "Settings" button for your Denon 4308 and then choose the "Adjust the Delays (speed settings)" button.

Make the "Inter-Key Delay" longer - about 600 or 700ms would be a good place to start.

With many devices, if you repeatedly push a button faster than the device actually responds, the device will still "remember" how many times you pushed the button and continue responding even after you have released the button. When you hold down the volume button on your remote, it might simply be repeatedly sending the command faster than the Denon is responding. So the Denon "thinks" that you pushed the volume button more times than you actually wanted to and continues to raise the volume as it "remembers" the number of commands that it "saw". Slowing the Inter-Key Delay will mean a longer gap inbetween each IR/RF command. Hopefully, you will be able to tune it so that the speed of the commands being sent matches the response time of the Denon.

Worth a try, anyway :)

[Alex]

I Got a Harmony 630 or 660 the Target branded one.
Great thing and all the buttons work. However i find all the devices are slow to respond.
I'm guessing the Remote can't flip between modes or something w/o a noticeable delay.